17612: On Celebrating Inclusive Beauty.

  

From The Drum…

What Notting Hill carnival teaches us about beauty’s inclusivity problem

By Manish Tiwari, Chairman & Founder Here&Now365

Notting Hill Carnival is a masterclass in what inclusive beauty really looks like. Here&Now 365’s Preet Khanna argues that brands need to go beyond diverse casting and prove their credentials through product, presence and genuine participation in culture.

Every August, Notting Hill Carnival showcases the same beauty truth: the haircare industry still hasn’t caught up with the people it serves. Locs, coils, braids, twists and afros filled the streets, worn loud, proud and completely unfiltered. But most of the products lining supermarket shelves were designed with none of that texture in mind.

So, what better test of a haircare brand than Notting Hill Carnival, where hours of dancing, heat and humidity leave a product that doesn’t perform with nowhere to hide?

At Vatika Naturals, over 140 years have gone into building a brand around one belief: no hair type should be left behind by generic haircare standards. This year, that belief met its truest test at Notting Hill Carnival. The result was #CarnivalOfStrands, a campaign built not simply as a marketing exercise, but as a genuine attempt to meet the community where it already was.

As Roshni Singh, head of marketing at Vatika Naturals, put it: “Our ethos has always been to embrace your natural self, and that belief sits at the heart of everything we create for our multi-ethnic audiences. #CarnivalOfStrands was a genuine attempt to cater to every hair type and celebrate the unique rhythm of every strand, part of a wider journey to build a brand that speaks to the full diversity of hair textures across our communities.”

What did this year’s Carnival tell us about building an inclusive beauty brand?

The gap is about presence, not awareness

Most ‘inclusive’ haircare campaigns stop at representation in imagery: a wider range of models, a more diverse casting brief. That’s necessary, but it’s not sufficient. What became clear early on was that the real gap was physical. Brands simply weren't showing up in the spaces where textured hair is most visibly, joyfully on display. So instead of running the campaign purely through digital media, Vatika went to where the hair was, taking over key spaces at Paddington Station to greet Carnival-goers the moment they stepped off the train.

That decision reshaped how the campaign was thought about as a whole. A poster can say a brand is inclusive but simply meeting someone where they are already celebrating says it more convincingly than any headline could.

Culture-first doesn’t mean culture-adjacent

There’s a difference between borrowing a moment and actually contributing to it. Partnering with Sundivas, a London-based music duo, let Vatika carry its brand ethos, ‘own your story, let them know’, through sound rather than just signage. It’s a small distinction, but an important one: Carnival’s invitation to show up exactly as you are works best when a brand adds something to that spirit rather than simply attaching itself to it.

Product credibility still must do the work

None of this lands without the product actually performing. Vatika’s Aquaboost and Curls Oil ranges exist because curl patterns behave differently under heat, humidity and hours of movement, the exact conditions Carnival puts hair through. But the bigger lesson for the industry isn’t about any single formula. It’s that inclusivity claims collapse quickly if the product itself was never built with textured hair as the standard, rather than an addition to an existing range. Carnival is where that promise was put to the test and proven right.

It’s more than just one campaign message

The haircare industry’s ‘one-size-fits-all’ approach has rarely reflected what Carnival looks like on the streets, and that mismatch isn’t unique to one event. It shows up every time a brand treats textured hair as a niche rather than a norm.

What #CarnivalOfStrands reinforced is that closing that gap takes more than a campaign message; it takes formulation built for the full range of textures, and a willingness to show up physically in the communities a brand says it's serving.

Vatika doesn’t claim to have solved that. But the brand came away from this Carnival with a sharper sense of what “inclusive” has to mean in practice: not a wider casting call, but a wider standard, for what counts as normal hair, and for where a brand is willing to turn up and prove it.

17611: On Annual Hispanic Heritage Month Pleas.

Advertising Age published the obligatory annual Hispanic Heritage Month perspective titled, “Hispanic growth is reshaping America—is your brand keeping up?”

Answer: ¡No!

Hispanic growth is reshaping America—is your brand keeping up?

By Flor Leibaschoff

This Hispanic Heritage Month, we’re happy to report that the stereotypes are finally moving out. We’re not just your gardener anymore. We’re your next-door neighbor now, too.

In 2025, Hispanic households accounted for essentially all of the net homeownership growth in the U.S. And a handful of brands have already figured out what that means for them.

Census data compiled by the National Association of Hispanic Real Estate Professionals shows Hispanic households added 441,000 net new owner-households last year, the largest single-year gain on record. Strip out Hispanic buyers and the country ends 2025 with roughly 125,000 fewer homeowners than it started with. Hispanics now represent 10.2 million homeowners nationally, an all-time high, and drove 92.6% of all new household formation.

The other half of the story is who’s building the homes: 18.8% of Hispanic-owned businesses are construction businesses, more than any other industry. Those businesses have grown by 75% in five years, while Hispanic-owned employer businesses overall grew 44.4%. That’s compared to 0.46% for all U.S. employer businesses.

The Home Depot, a brand I had the honor of working with for over eight years, already built its playbook around that overlap: Hispanics make up roughly 30% of the construction workforce and a “good majority” of its pro customer base, per the company. Its “Latina Doers” campaign and 15 years investing in this audience just earned The Home Depot the 2026 HMC Marketer of the Year. Molly Battin, chief marketing officer, put it plainly: “The Hispanic customer is not a segment for us; it’s central to how we think about growth.”

Ikea also moved on the Hispanic buyer. It launched a full Spanish-language e-commerce experience in the U.S. in July 2024, not as a campaign moment but as a permanent shopping infrastructure, with bilingual customer service built in. That’s a global furniture brand betting on Latino household formation well before this year’s numbers confirmed it was right to.

On the building side of the business, CertainTeed, a Saint-Gobain brand, runs a national program that provides Hispanic contractors with bilingual business training, credentialing and warranty benefits, helping the pros keep building, not just houses but their legacy. “We love helping our contractors build more than trust with homeowners; we help them build their legacy,” says Ana María Pulido, senior manager of CertainTeed, who leads the company’s Latino contractor initiative.

Sherwin-Williams is doing something similar for painters: its 2026 Leagues Cup push, “Gana con los Pros,” pairs sweepstakes and in-store activation with an existing platform, Acá Entre Pros, built specifically for Hispanic paint professionals.

That’s four categories moving forward:

• General retail

• Furniture

• Roofing and building materials

• Paint

Someone, please tell the Wayfairs of the world, they’re leaving money on the table.

Speaking of money, banks and mortgage lenders should be paying attention, too. Hispanic buyers are twice as likely as non-Hispanic buyers to use FHA financing, the exact product D.R. Horton, Lennar, Rocket Mortgage and United Wholesale Mortgage all sell at scale.

The data’s out there: Brands treating this as core infrastructure are naming it as their growth strategy in public, and watching their ROI move because of it. The ones still treating it as a seasonal moment are standing next to competitors who already made their move.

Speaking of moving, it’s time to move on this trend and start investing in the Hispanic market, vecino.

17610: On WPP Warehouse Production Property.

 

IndianTelevision.com spotlighted the grand opening of Devon’s Point, a production studio WPP is hyping as an AI-powered content factory.

Whoop-dee-damn-doo.

If anyone believes the warehouse is any different—or any better—than any facility at any White holding company or global flaming dumpster, well, you’ve bought a heaping helping of AI-generated bullshit.

IndianTelevision.com illustrated its report with the image depicted above of WPP CEO Cindy Rose in Devon’s Point. Or is she? Couldn’t a PR portrait be created via the wondrous technology with greater speed, efficiency, and affordability?

Will Devon’s Point utilize AI to fabricate triple bids?

WPP builds an AI-powered content factory as the production game changes

Devon’s Point combines virtual production, AI creative tools and human talent under one roof

By indiantelevision.com Team

LONDON: Artificial intelligence is moving deeper into the content production pipeline at WPP, which has launched Devon’s Point in East London as a global production hub combining AI-powered creative technology, virtual production and human talent.

The facility is designed to help WPP teams create and adapt content at scale, using AI and virtual production to build digital environments, product twins and localised creative assets without requiring conventional shoots for every market or setting.

WPP CEO Cindy Rose said the facility reflects the company’s push to make greater use of its AI capabilities as it looks to become a growth partner for global brands.

At Devon’s Point, teams can place a vehicle on a virtual production stage and create footage of it driving through locations such as the Swiss Alps or Tokyo without leaving the facility. WPP is also using the site to develop digital product twins and AI-powered creative environments that can be localised at scale.

The approach could reshape how brands produce and distribute large volumes of content, particularly as AI reduces the time and cost involved in creating multiple versions of campaigns for different markets.

WPP is also using Devon’s Point to bring AI closer to creator-led production. Its new creator studios are designed to help teams produce real-time content as brands increasingly rely on creators and earned influence to shape consumer discovery and purchasing decisions.

These capabilities are connected to WPP’s data intelligence and media operations through WPP Open, the company’s agentic marketing platform.

The facility also forms part of WPP’s push to build an AI-native creative workforce. Members of HEX Studio, its frontier AI studio, and participants in its Creative Technology Apprenticeship programme will work from Devon’s Point on live client projects.

Rose said the growing capacity of AI-generated content does not diminish the role of human creativity and craft. Instead, WPP is positioning the two as complementary, with creative practitioners continuing to develop ideas while AI expands the scale and speed at which they can be executed.

The launch comes a year after Rose took over as WPP CEO and highlights the company’s broader strategy of combining creative, production, data, media and AI capabilities through its technology platforms.

With Devon’s Point, WPP is effectively turning AI from a campaign-side experiment into part of the production infrastructure itself.

17609: Converse Defender Tells Everyone To KKKalm Down.

 

Adweek published yet another perspective on the Converse lynching controversy, allowing an author to figuratively hang himself.

The color commentator closed by remarking, “I fully expect this column to incur similar wrath from the sanctimonious corners of the internet where offence is easily taken and blame must then be immediately apportioned.”

Okay. Challenge accepted.

For starters, the author seems oblivious to having assumed a stereotypical role in the matter. That is, he’s the Angry Old White Guy.

It’s a waste of time attempting to school the culturally clueless. Although it’s particularly annoying in this case, as the author boasts having a PhD in Marketing and hypes his MiniMBA programs.

He’s clearly out to educate the masses versus consider the opportunity for a teachable moment. Self-absorption always trumps self-enlightenment, self-improvement, and self-awareness.

The final proclamation underscored his ignorance: “It just requires everyone to calm down.”

Yes, calm down despite once again experiencing the lashing disrespect of an industry historically mired in systemic racism.

Calm down by being told how to respond to offensive material by a bona fide representative of the offenders.

Calm down when even the unintentionally biased avoid accountability as intentionally as card-carrying KKK members.

From Converse to Ed Sheeran, Let’s End These Tedious Apology Tours

Converse, Oxford United, and Ed Sheeran all got dragged through the same ritual for mistakes that were accidental or not even theirs

By Mark Ritson

It was a rotten week for Converse. 

On Sept. 3, the Nike-owned brand posted a new campaign on social media for the Chuck 70 X built around Karina, the very famous singer from K-pop group aespa. 

In the key image she stands in a long white skirt, wearing the shoes and holding a second pair in one hand, framed by a spotlight cut in the shape of the Converse star.

Two weeks passed.

Then, someone noticed that the edge of the star projected onto her skirt made a shape a bit like a Klan hood. And that the shoes hanging from her hand could be read as a body. Then a second image surfaced, from Converse Malaysia, of models on a ladder reaching for sneakers strung from a tree branch. 

The two pictures welded together online into a single verdict.

Converse was now running “the most racist ad of the season.” The work was “shocking,” “abhorrent,” “repugnant.” Even if it was unintentional, the fact that it had gotten past legal, marketing, and leadership was itself an unforgivable offence.

Converse apologized within a day, pulled everything and promised to do better, but not enough for Louisiana Congressman Troy Carter. 

“Lynching is not a creative concept. The Ku Klux Klan is not an aesthetic,” he raged. “This campaign should never have been created, approved or released.” Nike and Converse, he said, should explain publicly how the images had passed through their approval process.

Step back from the heat for a second. Nobody seriously thought, for even a moment, that a Korean photographer shooting a Korean pop star for the Korean market was evoking the Klan. It was an accident. And the instant the claims were made, Converse said sorry, and pulled the work. 

Which prompts a question nobody in the pile-on bothered to ask. 

What else was Converse meant to do here?

It didn’t matter, though, as a wrong had been done, and offence taken. It didn’t matter whether it accidental or not, or whether an apology had already been offered.

Penalties must apply. 

The same script ran in England last week around the same time at Oxford United, a third tier football club. The team was founded in 1893, and a new range of American college-style clothing celebrated the fact with UNITED across the shoulders and a big 93 beneath it.

The collection went live on Sept. 11.

Almost immediately, someone inside the club worked out what a United 93 shirt looks like on the 25th anniversary of 9/11. The range and the posts promoting it were gone within two hours. That should have been the end of it.

It wasn’t. A week later, the club was being roasted on CNN, ESPN, and the Washington Post and had issued a full confession. The shirts “should not have reached the point of sale and we take full responsibility for not undertaking proper due diligence.” Again, nobody suggested any of this was deliberate. And again, the mistake was fixed within hours. But still an apology was required.

Then there is Ed Sheeran

On Saturday night, Sheeran delivered the most extreme entry in this new genre: an apology for something he demonstrably did not do. 

In Philadelphia, before playing a note, he stood in front of 60,000 people and said, “I am making mistakes and I’m so, so sorry.” 

He was apologizing for a rapper’s politics, a stadium owner’s ban, and a promoter’s decision, none of which were his, to an audience that just wanted to hear Shape of You. 

A man who has spent his career steering clear of every political issue going found himself in the middle of the most intractable one on earth. Through no fault of his own he found himself apologizing.

We have reached a very low point. The combination of crisis management, the fragmentation of culture and the insidious effects of social media have turned this decade into an unpleasant, sanctimonious place. Where the only option for innocent people is to eat humble pie with a double serving of reputational rescue slathered on top.

Converse set out to offend no one, and when it did, it made amends the same day. Oxford United made an awful accidental mistake and fixed it immediately, then apologised anyway. Ed Sheeran just wants to play music but must first apologize for things he did not do and does not understand. 

I fully expect this column to incur similar wrath from the sanctimonious corners of the internet where offence is easily taken and blame must then be immediately apportioned. 

Real harm, deliberately done, deserves an apology and consequences, and brands that drag their feet deserve everything they get. A mistake with no intent behind it deserves a correction. That’s all. 

“We’ve withdrawn it” is a complete sentence. It does not need “we understand.” It does not need “we’ll do better.” It just requires everyone to calm down.

17608: Mo’ Motions, No Motion In WPP Whistleblower Lawsuit.

 

MediaPost reported the latest motion sickness in the WPP whistleblower lawsuit, spotlighting a motion filed by the alleged whistleblower opposing a motion filed by the global flaming dumpster to dismiss the case.

Seems like lots of motions without any forward motion.

Foster Files Motion Opposing WPP’s Summary Dismissal Request

By Steve McClellan

Alleged WPP whistleblower Richard Foster filed a motion Friday opposing WPP’s request that the New York State Supreme Court judge hearing the case toss it before it goes to trial.    

Foster argues that his lawsuit should move forward because he has provided enough facts to support his claims that WPP and its media division retaliated against him after he reported what he believed were unlawful business practices—primarily misappropriating client media rebates and repackaging them for sale by its own principal trading unit.  

In late 2024 Foster submitted a report to WPP Media CEO Brian Lesser describing what he contended were legal and governance problems. Last month, Foster submitted details of a separate investigation by Sony that concluded that WPP Media siphoned $350 million in media rebates in China in a single year for its own use that properly belonged to clients. And he argues that the Sony probe backs up his own assertions that WPP wrongfully pocketed client rebates.   

A separate hearing has been scheduled for October where WPP will present its case for sealing the Sony material, which it has said is not relevant to the Foster litigation. Foster will argue why the Sony probe details should be allowed as evidence.  

According to Foster, Lesser acknowledged that the report raised "legal issues,” but instead of addressing the concerns, allegedly shared the report with an executive whom Foster had criticized.  

After that, Foster says he was gradually pushed aside, excluded from important meetings and projects, and ultimately fired in July 2025. 

“Defendants ask the Court to decide three questions on the pleadings: what Foster believed, what he communicated, and why he was the subject of months of retaliation,” Foster states in his latest motion. “Each is a question of fact that is not appropriately decided on a motion to dismiss.” 

He argues that the court must assume his factual allegations are true at this early stage. He argues WPP is asking the judge to weigh evidence and resolve factual disputes, which should happen later in the case, not on a motion to dismiss. 

Foster argues that Lesser knew about his concerns, and that retaliation began shortly after his report was delivered, and that there was a continuing pattern of adverse treatment leading up to his firing. 

He also notes that in previous filings by WPP, the company’s explanation for firing him is inconsistent—that it has characterized his departure as an "ignominious termination" while also saying it resulted from a global restructuring. Those explanations conflict and raise factual questions that should be resolved at trial rather than be dismissed now. 

Foster, who ran WPP’s content investment and branded entertainment unit, Motion, is seeking $100 million in severance and damages. He says the company offered him a seven-figure severance package conditioned on his silence, which he says he rejected.

17607: WPP Production Bids Farewell To Exclusive Bidding.

 

Campaign reported WPP Production has taken down its guidance on rigging the bidding system, a scheme that instructed staff to “actively convince” clients to assign all production work exclusively to the single White operating company, effectively avoiding the standard triple bid process.

The Trusted Growth Partner For The World’s Leading Brands appears to have reconsidered the questionable ethics and lack of transparency posed by such a maneuver.

Looks like WPP Production will have to earn jobs based on performance and capabilities—quite a challenge for the global flaming dumpster. Yikes.

17606: On Converse KKKicks.

BBC reported Converse yanked an Instagram advertisement following complaints that the image evoked KKK imagery.

At least they didn’t rename the featured shoe Chuck 70 burning cross trainer.

Converse pulls ‘deeply upsetting’ advert after backlash

By Amy Walker

American footwear brand Converse has pulled an advert that social media users said evoked Ku Klux Klan imagery, saying it recognised “that we got this wrong”.

The photo, posted to the company’s Instagram account, received backlash online after critics described lighting in the image as looking like a white pointed hood.

A pair of shoes, dangling in the picture, were also likened to an image of a lynching victim by social media users.

In an apology, first issued on Friday, Converse said the photo had been removed from its social media channels and it was working to remove it elsewhere. “This should not have happened and we will do better,” it said.

The statement also said: “We’re sorry. We understand why this image is deeply upsetting and recognize that we got this wrong”.

The photo was part of a campaign promoting its Chuck 70 X trainer, launched internationally on 27 August.

The campaign features the South Korean singer Karina, of the K-pop group Aespa, who is pictured in a series of advertisements for the shoes.

Founded in Massachusetts in the early 1900s, the popularity of Converse has skyrocketed since its Chuck Taylor sneaker was first introduced to US basketball courts in 1917.

The global brand has been a subsidiary of Nike since 2003.

17605: On Exposing Ugliness Of PepsiCo Pageantry.

 

More About Advertising published a lengthy perspective titled, “Ad agency pitch theatre is not a sport, but a beauty contest,” providing a probing analysis of PepsiCo global media duties shifting from Omnicom to Publicis Groupe.

The title poses two inherent flaws.

First, the PepsiCo business was awarded sans pitch. To play off the content concept, a winner was crowned without having to appear in the swimsuit competition—or any other pageant event. Indeed, it’s unclear how the decision was made, rendering the entire affair suspicious and potentially scandalous.

Second, the opinion piece was illustrated by the AI-generated image depicted above. A more accurate cartoon would have presented three Old White Guys, an Asian man, and a White woman. It’s an exclusive—and not very pretty—spectacle.

17604: Continuing Cola Wars Craziness.

 

More About Advertising opined on Ogilvy scoring a Coca-Cola European football project via a pitch featuring WPP Open X (presumably led by Ogilvy), Publicis’ Le Pub, Studio.One (led by former AKQA CEO Ajaz Ahmed), and Uncommon Creative Studio (co-founded by former Grey London Chairman and CCO Nils Leonard).

Was the pitch underway before Publicis Groupe landed PepsiCo global media duties?

Given WPP Open X was invented to solely serve Coke, facing competition from outsider enterprises does not seem to reflect favorably on the single White operating company and its offerings.

The scenario also indicates an industry shift, whereby reviews for major chunks of business are not necessarily closed affairs, exclusive privileges available only to a handful of White holding companies. Although it still involves cronyism and entitled relationships.

In the end, the self-proclaimed Trusted Growth Partner For The World’s Leading Brands hasn’t gained trust, realized growth, or been a partner for any brand in the world—and the global flaming dumpster now competes against ex-employees for assignments.

Coke goes great with humble pie.

More Coke pitches: this time Ogilvy’s on top

By Stephen Foster

They do love their pitches at Coca-Cola despite the creative part of the giant account supposedly safely harboured at WPP. This time it’s a WPP team led by Ogilvy reportedly winning a European football brief in a pitch against Publicis’ Le Pub (which handles Heineken), Ajaz Ahmed’s new Studio.One and Uncommon Creative Studio (there are nearly as many studios these days as pitches.)

Coke has invested heavily in football with some lively campaigns although this seems to be the first time it’s been a separate project. Coca-Cola is an official sponsor of the Premier League in the UK.

Nobody’s saying anything on the record but it’s an interesting pitch. Studio.One, the new creative company formed by former AKQA boss Ajaz Ahmed has already picked up a Christmas assignment from Coke. Ogilvy has won (or retained) a number of Coke assignments recently and seems to be the lead agency on WPP Open X work. Must be frustrating, not to say exhausting, having to keep repeating yourself though.

17603: The Naked Truth About Sydney Sweeney’s Novig Controversy.

 

Adweek spotlighted a new Sydney Sweeney controversy, noting the actress has gone from inciting ire with her wardrobe to doing likewise with no clothing.

The latest outcry is for a campaign hyping Novig, a sports prediction market and trading app, which protestors complain is insulting female athletes.

Okay, except research indicates most people interested in services like Novig—over 70%—are young males. So, a naked Sweeney is probably perfectly appealing to the target audience.

The American Eagle advertising offended people of color, while the Novig promotion pisses off White women—a group that has historically wielded greater power and influence than minorities.

In short, this scenario might pose more damage to Novig than Sweeney delivered to American Eagle.

Bet on it.

One Year Post-American Eagle Scandal, Sydney Sweeney Sparks Ire by Going Naked for Novig

The ad has received backlash for reversing years of gains for female athletes

By Robert Klara

Last August, Sydney Sweeney broke the internet with American Eagle spots showing her in a too-tight top and struggling with the zipper of her jeans.

In her new campaign for Novig, Sweeney has solved those wardrobe problems: She’s not wearing anything at all.

“Today, we at Novig unveiled out first national brand campaign featuring Sweeney,” the sports prediction app announced on its website, “bringing to life our belief that the best sports trading experience comes from a platform singularly focused on sports.”

The campaign’s title is “Just Sports.” But judging from the heated response from the public, “Just Sex” might have been a better title. 

Though some men have expressed appreciation for the work (one calling it “better than any sports playing right now,”) women have largely responded with disappointment and anger.

The problem isn’t showing skin, per se (advertising is already full of that). But at a time when female athletes have just begun inching toward parity in pay and fame, people feel Sweeney has turned back the clock to the Playboy era.

“I can’t describe how infuriated I feel when I watch this,” Australian gold-medalist swimmer Ariane Titmus wrote on Instagram, referring to Sweeney’s ads as “a kick in the face to every woman who has dedicated her life to perfecting her craft.”

Women outside the sports realm have expressed their dismay, too.

“Every great female athlete has used her platform to create movement, challenge norms, inspire change and make an impact,” AI executive Indigo Haddington responded on Sweeney’s Instagram page. “All she’s done is get paid for what she’s known for: her body.”

It’s unlikely that Novig or Sweeney were under any illusions that this campaign was about “just sports” in a literal sense. What’s beyond dispute is that the campaign takes a page from a playbook written long ago—a legacy that Sweeney herself seems to have nodded to in her response to the backlash: a post with a series of photos showing athletes, including MMA star Ronda Rousey and football beefcake Rob Gronkowski, showing plenty of skin.

Even so, even in advertising, a revealing image is one thing; a lasciviousness message is another. In 1971, National Airlines ran ads starring their leggy flight attendants who invited businessmen to “fly me.” In the early 2000s, Axe’s notorious “Billions” ad depicted a tribe of libidinous women chasing down a man who’d just used Axe body spray.

And while evidence is mixed that sex really increases sales, a 2013 study published in the Journal of Advertising found that “males evaluate ads with sexual appeals significantly more positively than females.” And when it comes to sports betting, one recent estimate suggested that 70% of the bettors are men.

Not that there’s no upside for the 29-year-old Sweeney, who’s not just the femme fatale here; she’s a partner and equity stakeholder, too.